Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_4/V13_456.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #456

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 456

Today's Topics:
               Re: Saturn V blueprints
          Re: launch on Friday from the Cape
            SPACE Digest V13 #449
               Re: Saturn V blueprints
            Re: Cape York launch facility
        Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
             [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 18:57:21 GMT
From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!ox.com!hela![e-mail]  (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael V. Kent) writes:
>Good luck trying to get any aerospace contractor to take a fixed price
>contract.  I know McDonnell Douglas, General Dynamics, and Lockheed are
>staying far away from them.

FYI I just spoke with one of my sources who was present at the briefing
on Saturn. He is '90% sure' that Rocketdyne offered to sign a fixed
price contract for delivery of 50 F-1 and some number of J-2 engines.

   Allen
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Allen W. Sherzer | If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back |
|   [e-mail]   | to you, hunt it down and kill it.                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 18:37:03 GMT
From: bu.edu!encore![e-mail]  (Antonio Maldonado)
Subject: Re: launch on Friday from the Cape

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail]:
> Does anyone have additional information on that communications satellite
> that was launched Friday evening from Cape Canaveral?  All I was able to
> gather from the media was that it was a communications satellite from GTE
> Spacenet and that it's geostationary place will be on the longitude that Texas
> covers.  My main question is if the satellite is a Television one or just a
> data w/o video one.
>
> Robert


  As I understand, on of the second stage engine did not fire up
 and the rocket started to spin uncontrollble, and was destroyed.

  I can probaly get more details if needed.

 From the Space Coast....

------------------------------

ReSent-Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Resent-Date:  Wed, 24 Apr 91 17:44:45 EDT
Resent-From: tom <[e-mail]>
Resent-To: [e-mail]
Date:         Wed, 24 Apr 91 01:54:02 EDT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Subject:      SPACE Digest V13 #449
Comments: To: [e-mail]
To: david polito <[e-mail]>, Tom McWilliams <[e-mail]>

Subject: Saturn V rebuild costs

>We can be pretty sure the Saturn V will be expensive because it is so old.

Could I interest you in a '83 Buick Skyhawk?  Only $6000.00  Runs Great.  |->

Tommy Mac
Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU>

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 21:57:58 GMT
From: news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>The only kind of heavylift launcher that Congress will fund will be one
>>designed for maximum reliability and a modest launch rate. ...
>>etc.).  A proven design or simple derivative of one is a better bet than a
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>clean-slate one, given Congress's memories of the shuttle experience.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Better not tell the guys at GM Saturn. Their "clean-slate" automobiles
>are a hekkuva lot better put together than GM's "dervatives." Moderate
>pricing and high quality were both achieved.

Note what I said:  not "it's a better bet to work", but "it's a better
bet to get funded".  NASA's recent record with clean-slate systems is,
uh, not too good, and Congress knows it.
--
And the bean-counter replied,           | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
"beans are more important".             |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 12:47:24 GMT
From: dev8a.mdcbbs.com![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Cape York launch facility

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Frank Radley) writes:
>
>
> Well apart from Alligators, at KSC I have had my only
> close up view of a school of porpoises frollicking in the
> lagoon.    Manatees and birdlife abound.

It is part of the standard launch procedure to inspect the pad for any wildlife
that has taken up residence, and to remove them prior to liftoff. There has
been a few cases where the wildlife ( a bobcat) has chased the inspectors
off of the pad!

Mike

------------------------------

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SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 453

Today's Topics:
                Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
                         [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 449

Today's Topics:
              Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18
             NASA Headline News for 04/23/91 (Forwarded)
                          new gifs available
                       Re: Saturn V blueprints
                       Galileo's main antenna.
                   Watching the Space Shuttle Land
                       Re: Saturn V blueprints
                  Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
                         [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 15:12:43 GMT
From: world!ksr![e-mail]  (John F. Woods)
Subject: Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18

[e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
   u (Doug McDonald) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rober
   t Gutierrez) writes:
>>>I wrote:
>>>> Aside from the usual news reports, does anybody have any better details
>>>> on the Atlas Centuar KSC self-destructed???
>>>I'll bet those Arainespace launchings are looking better and better
>>>every day to everybody else ...
>> The folks who lost one to the Atlas had just finished losing one to
>> Arianespace.
>Okay! What is everybody doing WRONG? How can we (meaning all of Earth) develop
>a reliable, economic orbital delivery system?

By building them and blowing them up until we learn how to do it right?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 04:19:48 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Peter E. Yee)
Subject: NASA Headline News for 04/23/91 (Forwarded)


             Headline News
Internal Communications Branch (P-2) NASA Headquarters

  Tuesday, April 23, 1991       Audio Service: 202 / 755-1788

This is NASA Headline News for Tuesday, April 23, 1991 . . .

NASA mission managers cancelled today's planned launch of
Discovery for the STS-39 mission at 1:15 am this morning.  The
cancellation was based on the failure of a transducer on the high
pressure oxidizer turbopump on main engine #3.  The Kennedy Space
Center launch team is in the process of detanking and safing the
orbiter now.  Once the safing operation is completed, engineers will
enter Discovery's aft compartment to perform troubleshooting
procedures.

The launch team is currently working on an extended turnaround
schedule for the STS-39 mission, but the earliest possible date for a
launch would be Sunday, April 28.

STS-39 crew members Mike Coats, Blaine Hammond, Gregory
Harbaugh and Donald McMonagle will fly back to Houston and return
to Kennedy by Friday.  Crew members Richard Hieb, Guy Bluford and
Charles Veach will remain in Florida.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Marshall Space Flight Center Gamma Ray Observatory scientists
report that their Burst and Transient Source Experiment
instrument detected its first gamma-ray burst last Thursday,
April 18.  Gamma-ray bursts are mysterious flashes of gamma-ray
energy which occur randomly in different positions of the sky.  The
bursts are so powerful that they release in just 1/10 of a second the
energy our Sun releases in a thousand years.  Dr. Gerald Fishman,
Marshall, is the principal investigator and reports that this first
observation confirms that their instrument is working.  The next day,
the instrument experienced what is probably a computer chip
malfunction.  The chip is on a redundant circuit board.  The backup
circuit for that function is operating now and the instrument is
operating at 100 percent of its capabilities.  The Gamma Ray
Observatory will be pointing at the Crab Nebula for the
remainder of the week so that the four instruments on board can be
calibrated.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Jet Propulsion Laboratory yesterday awarded a $145 million
contract to Loral Corp. to design and build the Atmospheric
Infrared Sounder instrument, to be flown aboard the first of the
Earth Observing System satellites, now scheduled for launch in 1998.
The infrared sounder will be a global thermometer and will measure
atmospheric temperature profiles with an accuracy of one degree,
Celsius.  Principal Investigator for the instrument is JPL's Dr.
Moustafa Chahine.  The instrument is expected to operate
continuously for five years.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Stennis Space Center education specialists held Early Education
Monday last week for 170 students at two schools in Mississippi and
one school in Louisiana.  The Stennis visitor's center hosted 3,111
guests last week, representing 38 states and 15 countries.  The center
also conducted tours and briefings for members of the Arkansas
Space Grant Consortium.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Joust 1, a commercial suborbital rocket carrying 10 materials and
biotechnology experiments has been rescheduled for launch at 8:30
am EDT, on Monday, May 6, from launch complex 20 at Cape
Canaveral Air Force Station.  The Joust 1 mission is sponsored by
the University of Alabama-Huntsville's Consortium for Materials
Development in Space.  The Consortium is a NASA Center for the
Commercial Development of Space affiliate.  A preflight press briefing
on the mission and the 10 experiments will be held at 1:00 pm, Friday,
May 3.  Both the preflight press briefing and the launch will be carried
live on NASA Select TV.

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Marshall Space Flight Center officials provided a special tour for
24 students who were category winners from the Huntsville
City and Madison County Science Fairs.  Three of the students,
who were selected for special recognition, met with Marshall center
engineers who work in areas associated with the student's project.
Marshall engineers and scientists will be on the road to three
universities, University of Alabama-Birmingham, Harding University,
Arkansas, and Valdosta State College, Georgia, this week giving
presentations to students and staff on the center's work in astronomy
and materials science.


Here's the broadcast schedule for Public Affairs events on NASA
Select TV.  Note that all events and times may change without notice,
and that all times listed are Eastern.

Tuesday, 4/23/91
        2:00 pm Magellan Science Seminar, live from the Jet Propulsion
          Laboratory.  This will be a presentation by the Magellan science
          team of current Venus surface images and analysis of those
          images.

        6:00 pm Replay of the Magellan Science Seminar.

Wednesday, 4/24/91
        1:15 pm Magellan-at-Venus status briefing live from Jet Propulsion
          Laboratory.

This report is filed daily at noon, Monday through Friday.  It is a service of
NASA's Office of Public Affairs.  The contact is Charles Redmond, 202/453-
8425 or CREDMOND on NASAmail.  NASA Select TV is carried on GE
Satcom F2R, transponder 13, C-Band, 72 degrees West Longitude,
transponder frequency is 3954.5 megaHertz, audio is offset 6.8 MHz,
polarization is vertical.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 17:04:57 GMT
From: borg!altair![e-mail]  (Laura Weaver)
Subject: new gifs available


I ftp'ed a couple of the neptune gif files, but am having trouble displaying
them with VUIMG and CSHOW.  CSHOW says that the files have bad block i.d.'s.
Any suggestions as to what could be the problem would be appreciated.

Laura Weaver
[e-mail]
Computer Science Dept.
Univ. of NC at Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 04:49:03 GMT
From: usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi![e-mail]  (Michael V. Kent)
Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) write
   s:
[Sorry, I lost the original poster.  Allen didn't write the >> stuff.]

>>You also must realize, Rocketdyne is looking for a contract.  *Of Course*
>>they are going to give their 'best estimate.'
>
>I think their proposal was a fixed price contract. If it costs more then
>it is out of their hide. You may be assured it is indeed a good estimate.
>
>If it wasn't a fixed price offer, we make them offer it fixed price.
>If it is still cheaper than ALS, go for it. What's wrong wiht that?

Good luck trying to get any aerospace contractor to take a fixed price
contract.  I know McDonnell Douglas, General Dynamics, and Lockheed are
staying far away from them.

The hazards of fixed price contracts should be clear to anyone familiar with
the A-12.  Many of the Avenger's problems stemmed from the fact that the
Navy didn't want to give up its "good deal."

>>I don't think ALS is trying to push technological envalopes.
>
>That's not what NASA says.

The main thrust (pardon the pun) of ALS is to reduce the cost and increase
the reliability of ELV's.  ALS is not being designed to push the performance
envelopes but the cost and reliability envelopes instead.  If you consider
that pushing the technological envelopes (which it is), then your statement
is correct.  But I doubt that is what the original poster meant.

>>Why not just make a new one?
>
>Because it would cost more, take longer, and not work as well. I'm sorry
>you don't find those good reasons.

This is by no means certain.  In fact, my engineering sense tells me just
the opposite.

--
Michael Kent                                  [e-mail]
McDonnell Douglas                             Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
St. Louis, Missouri                           Troy, New York
                               Apple II Forever!

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 15:32:26 GMT
From: pasteur!agate!bionet!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!he
   lios.physics.utoronto.ca!ists!nereid![e-mail]  (H. Peter Whi
   te)
Subject: Galileo's main antenna.


Once on its way to Jupiter at least, Galileo will be having its main antenna
(assuming that they do get it all the way open) pointing roughly into the sun.
Now I would have thought that having such a large, thin metal surface always in
sunlight, with the other side always away from the sun, would cause it to
become charged, due to things like the photo-electric effect, and the fact that
its treavelling thru a variable solar magnetic field.

Has anyone looked at this, or is it not a big problem for the operation of the
probe?

H. Peter White
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 02:30:30 GMT
From: skipper![e-mail]  (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Watching the Space Shuttle Land

If the Shuttle launches at 0405 PDT tomorrow, 23 Apr, it will land
at 1130 PDT 1 May.  If it launches later, add on accordingly.

There are two ways to see the Shuttle landing at Edwards AFB, listed
in order of restrictiveness of access and availability.

     1.  The East Shore area on the lakebed.  Take Hwy 14 to Avenue
         F and follow the signs.  This area is opened about 2 days
         before the scheduled touchdown.  The viewing area is an
         unimproved area so don't expect many amenities.  I think that
         there are sanitary facilities and that food and drinks can be
         purchased.  It's suggested that you bring food and water
         Nothing is required for access to this area.  (I've never been
         to this area, so I can't speak from personal knowledge.)

         If any viewing is allowed this site will be open.  The only
         times they don't open it is for the DoD's classified missions.

     2.  The hillside viewing area.  This is on the hillside, just
         above Ames-Dryden, and requires a special pass.  This pass is
         good for one vehicle, with any number of passengers.  You
         can't enter the Ames-Dryden complex but you can walk down the
         hill to the cafeteria and the giftshop, etc.  More amenities,
         including radio transmissions from the Shuttle and JSC.  Some
         of us believe that this area has the BEST view of the landing.

         I believe that the Hillside, like the East Shore, is open for
         all unclassified missions.

         These passes can be obtained by writing, as detailed below.
         Ames-Dryden employees can also obtain them.


To obtain a hillside pass, write to:

     NASA Ames-Dryden Flight Research Facility
     Attn:  Ms. Cei Kratz
     Public Affairs Office
     P.O. Box 273
     Edwards, CA  92523-5000

Do this early, because there is a limited amount of space.  If you get
these and then discover that you can't attend, please try to pass them
on to someone else who can use them.  Incidently, there is _no_ charge
for any of these.

Come see the Shuttle land--it's great.

Wear warm clothes!

If the Shuttle lands in the morning, it will be cool to downright
cold.  Forget the myth that the desert is always hot, it may be in the
low 60s even in the summer at sunrise.  It's frequently freezing in
the winter.  If it's much warmer, it's because the wind is blowing.

Hillside Guests will be sitting up on metal bleachers.  The portions
of their anatomy in contact with the bleachers (feet and seat) may get
_real_ cold.

1130 shouldn't be too bad, but if you get here early, be prepared.

--
Mary Shafer  [e-mail]  ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
           NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
                     Of course I don't speak for NASA
            "Turn to kill, not to engage."  CDR Willie Driscoll

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 04:11:50 GMT
From: wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi![e-mail]  (Michael V. Ke
   nt)
Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arnold G
   . Gill) writes:
>In article <t.qg-=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael V. Kent) says:
>>
>>Rebuilding the Saturn V will give you an old, expensive, unreliable system.
>>Better to take what we've learned and start anew.
>
>     Old -- of course.  Expensive -- unknown until it is actually built.
>Unreliable -- perhaps I am being forgetful here, but were there not exactly 0
>Saturn V failures, no launch delays?  Compare that to the shuttle, where
>launch delays are the rule.  Old and simple does not necessarily mean bad and
>unsafe.  But new gadgets are what powers the industrial feeding trough.

Read the rest of my post.  We can be pretty sure the Saturn V will be expen-
sive because it is so old.  It will not be easy or cheap to re-engineer the
Saturn V.  Let me repeat: parts are no longer available, venders have gone
bankrupt, tools have been destroyed, machinists have retired, and replacement
parts will be out of spec.  Expensive and time-consuming engineering will
need to be done to rebuild it.



--
Michael Kent                                  [e-mail]
McDonnell Douglas                             Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
St. Louis, Missouri                           Troy, New York
                               Apple II Forever!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 04:48:04 GMT
From: prism![e-mail]  (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (will) writes:

>       I don't entirly agree with the Anti-trust thing, I mean if America
>       can allow murders to run rabid, crazies to mass murder 10+ people
>       and put them back on the street, allow police officers to beat up
>       people for enjoyment.  I think congress can overlook a simple little
>       thing like Anti-trust.  Besides with half of America on drugs I really
>       don't think anyone is going to notice.  At least this is what is printed
>       in the Japanese news, that an average Japanese will read.

Sounds like the Japanese aren't nearly as smart as people seem to give them
credit for.  This is the same media that claims the Japanese people are from
Mars, right?

Sounds like the seeds of Japanese decline are starting to sprout...

--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their
Office of Information Technology      P.O. box."  - Zebadiah Carter,
Internet: [e-mail]    _The Number of the Beast_

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #449
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End of SPACE Digest V13 #456
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